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Name: Chiara | Gender: a young lady | Age: 20 | Posts: 103 | Roses: 10
Old 10-09-2014 at 09:43 PM
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 Post [21]


I see what you mean, but I don't think I can agree :/ Personally, I think she didn't mean anything. I think she wanted to be happy, but she also wanted them both to be happy. And she was completely usnure which kind of act would make all of them happy.


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Name: Linda | Gender: Female | Posts: 147 | Roses: 10
Old 10-10-2014 at 12:07 AM
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 Post [22]


It's okay if you don't agree. These were just my own thoughts on Christine. To me, the story doesn't mesh unless all three main characters are flawed in some way, and they manage to overcome their flaws. To me, Christine's flaw is in herself. You may be right, she's trying to keep everyone happy. But I can't see her keeping everyone happy unless there's something in it for her. To me, that's basically the same thing as Raoul trying to get her approval. He's not doing that for her, he's doing that for himself.

I was thinking about our infamous conversation yesterday involving Erik's praise of Christine as a "good girl". It's odd to me that Erik wouldn't already be aware of Christine's goodness. After all, she lived with him for a while and he was the Angel of Music to her for what? A few months? He also stalked her so would have a pretty well rounded picture of the girl he's tutoring.

Raoul accuses Christine at least once of lying to him. Erik does not accuse her, but instead warns her against lying to him. Christine herself admits to lying to Erik, but is convinced he believes her lies. Erik's a very smart guy. Does this girl really believe she has the skill to pull the wool over his eyes simply by burning his mask? I don't know, maybe she gave herself away when lying. Perhaps when she lied, she took on the dead bride look that Erik talks about.

Maybe he saw through all her lies all along, but he loves her so much he's willing to ignore them. Until the end. Maybe at the end, when she's forced to finally confront not only him, but herself, maybe that's when he sees the truth, and for the first time his bride is alive to him. She has that goodness he speaks of. If this is the case, I can see why you would believe he was talking about her goodness.

Just some thoughts I threw out here. I'm not convinced Christine is the innocent in all of this. It must feel good to go from practically a nobody to a star and all of the sudden have two men fighting over her. I'm not saying she's a gold digger or encouraged it. But on the other hand, she didn't go out of her way to discourage it either.
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Name: Lynn Rossignol | Gender: Female | Age: 39 | Posts: 30 | Roses: 10
Old 10-10-2014 at 01:20 AM
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 Post [23]


She does discourage Raoul, but he ignores his dismissal forcing the issue.

In my opinion Christine's flaw is her initial naivity which led her into believing Erik's deception in the first place. by the time Raoul comes along with his 'persistence' flaw she's too far into things to extract herself gracefully.

Erik's flaw? Well that's as a plain as the nose on his face ... uhh... wait, scratch that.


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Name: Linda | Gender: Female | Posts: 147 | Roses: 10
Old 10-10-2014 at 01:50 AM
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 Post [24]


I won't disagree there was some discouragement. Not a lot though and more half-hearted than genuine. In my opinion of course.

Was Christine deceived into believing Erik was the Angel of Music? I wonder. She didn't think the voice belonged to the Angel of Music. Valerius put the idea to her. The Angel acted quite differently than the stories she grew up with. I imagine as smart as she was, she would have questioned that and the Voice. But then, she was getting singing lessons out of the friendship. No doubt it was easier to get the benefits and go along with it than to ruin things by asking questions.

As I said before, I don't see Christine as the innocent in all of this. It makes a far more interesting story to me with all three characters being flawed.
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Name: Chiara | Gender: a young lady | Age: 20 | Posts: 103 | Roses: 10
Old 10-10-2014 at 09:18 AM
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 Post [25]


Of course all three of them are flawed, and they also have good sides. I definitely agree here. Just like every person on the Earth, every person in that book is flawed - and still has good sides. No doubt about that.

I don't think she fully believed in the Angel, but still had some deep, inner hope the voice would really be the Angel. And of course, taking the lessons and keeping it the way it is was a lot easier. Still, I think Christine was, while being smart/intelligent, very unworldly. But not supersticious. And I think that's the difference between her and the other women in the opera - all of them have been supersticious, believing in (and being afraid of) all kinds of supernatural stuff. Typical Victorian girls of a low social status. Christine had a different upbringing - with no status at all, really - travelling around Sweden and later France, meeting all kinds of people, sleeping in all kinds of buldings and hearing all kinds of stories. She simply accepted what appeared to be supernatural - it was all the same to her. She didn't really question it, she wasn't afraid of it, because it was normal for her. It might be because she was Scandinavian - after all, there are troll warn signs in Norway ;D And Christine lived in the 19th century, it must have been much more prominent than now. While the other women in the opera grew up being afraid of cross-eyed people, black cats and all kinds of stuff they believed to be magical or ghostly, Christine grew up sinply accepting all kinds of beings which are supernatural - no matter if they exist or don't. She wasn't afraid, she didn't wonder. She just accepted it. And he, who might be an Angel, gave her the best vocal lessons of her life? Why should she change a thing? Mama Valerius might be right after all. And if she was wrong, she'd still have some voice lessons.


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Name: Linda | Gender: Female | Posts: 147 | Roses: 10
Old 10-10-2014 at 12:43 PM
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 Post [26]


Sounds like Christine had some greed going on there. What do you think?
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Name: Chiara | Gender: a young lady | Age: 20 | Posts: 103 | Roses: 10
Old 10-10-2014 at 07:21 PM
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Yeah, I think some greed was involved, but I think it was a minor part of the reasons for her actions.


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Name: Anne | Gender: Female | Posts: 66 | Roses: 10
Old 12-22-2014 at 02:53 AM
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 Post [28]


Okay, I don't want to get too into this, especially since I sort of already did on another board, so I'm trying to be very careful.

I do want to say that while Christine was smart, she didn't seem to grow up until after she met Erik as himself. And Christine [B]was[B] mentally ill. She was depressed - mental illnesses can cause people to do things (or in Christine's case, be more gullible) than they might normally do. Since Daddy Daae was the source of Christine's depression, it is very possible that while Velarius brought it up, she clung to it out of desperation and therefore believe when she might not have otherwise.
I think it depends on your translation. Mine suggests to me that she believed, even though I think she had a sense of something dangerous that her yearn for a father figure and belief/trust in the Voice was clouding her judgement of. And let's not forget that she cries when she sees he's just a man.

There's also this:
"I was no longer in control of myself: I had become his thing!"'

'How in the world is she deciding which one is better? Christine returns because she fears that awful things will happen, but more importantly because of her compassion for him. She's getting herself more freedom by going back. No greed, just trying to handle the situation.

I think she played engagement because she could not escape Erik, yet she had to try to be happy, so she chose the thing she knew would still protect Raoul. However, she "soon realized the dangers of the game and scolded herself." But if she had stopped then, Erik would have asked why and then realized that she did it so he would not be miserable.


As for Raoul, I think he believed Christine was in love with her "Angel" and was jealous because he did not believe she loved him. It was common in that time for singers to be dishonest, so his accusing her of lying was just him trying to see whether she was truly who he thought as he fell in love with the good, virtuous Christine and not the common singer. And while he did wait behind the door to speak to Christine that first night, it says that he thought she might be waiting for him (arrogant, yes, but we see that diminish when he's willing to die for her. If that's not true love, I don't know what is.) Nevertheless, everything he does is because he genuinely loves her. If not, why would he play the engagement game? I think he was just happy to be with her. The next time they're together, it's at Perros, and Christine tells him about her Angel and he sees her strange ecstasy at the sound of the Voice. This is where his concern begins. After he's fearing for her and trying to figure out what the heck is going on with her Angel. Can you really blame him for that? But never does he say she is his. Never does he force her to go with him. Raoul may be bitter and heartbroken because of her strange actions, but all he wants to do is be with her.
The Phantom I think was definitely greedy, but showed his love when he let her go.

I think you all have valid points, but these are the things I've taken from what I read.
Of course, none of the three are perfect. Chrsitine does the best she can, but she's still naive, and the others have obvious flaws.
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Name: Linda | Gender: Female | Posts: 147 | Roses: 10
Old 12-22-2014 at 11:13 PM
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 Post [29]


Which translation is this one, Lotte?
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Name: Anne | Gender: Female | Posts: 66 | Roses: 10
Old 12-22-2014 at 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Designated Driver View Post
Which translation is this one, Lotte?
It is an unabridged version of the text.
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