The Phantom's Opera
Go Back   The Phantom's Opera » The Lair of the Phantom » The House on the Lake
Remember Me?

View Poll Results:
0 0%
Voters: 0. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
Viewing Thread: 1 [0 Performers and 1 Ghosts]
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 

Name: Clemence | Gender: female | Age: 26 | Posts: 81 | Roses: 10
Old 12-13-2006 at 04:31 PM
queen
Wandering Child
Opera Performer

queen's Avatar


Roaming Dungeons
(Performer Is Offline)
 Post [11] »


But you know French men. And maybe his hunger for love drove him to do bad things like rape. In Leroux he always went to the Bolougne,and even took Christine with him [The Bois de Boulogne is a famous place for prostitutes and suchlike]


L'amour est comme le poison, c'est dangereux


J'espère que vous ne construisez pas tant de murs que vous ne pouvez pas voir quand ils doivent être abaissés
queen's Profile Send Private Message Search Posts Reply With Quote

Name: | Gender: | Posts: 301 | Roses: 10
Old 12-27-2006 at 04:41 AM
YoungGiry
Wandering Child
Opera Performer



Roaming Dungeons
(Performer Is Offline)
 Post [12] »


I don't think so, personally. Both in the book and musical - though in different ways in each - it is emphasized that Erik has difficulty interacting normally with other people. In my opinion, his behavior as regards Christine shows quite clearly that he doesn't know how to interact romantically with people, even less than he knows how to interact with them in other senses.

In response to Clemence's last post: I'm not ruling out the possibility that he had sex with prostitutes or other women. But I don't think it's very likely that he had any sort of lasting relationship with them.



The angel sees, the angel knows.
YoungGiry's Profile Send Private Message Search Posts Reply With Quote

Name: Ran | Gender: Female | Age: 27 | Posts: 1,118 | Roses: 84
Old 12-28-2006 at 07:16 AM
PhAnToMeSs07
Wandering Child
House Patron
Random Ran

PhAnToMeSs07's Avatar


Roaming Dungeons
(Performer Is Offline)
 Post [13] »


A topic such as this can go in so many different directions.



Quote:
Northangel27: I think that by looking at the situation with Christine, it is quite clear how dangerous Erik's love could be, as it tends to border on obsession. Surely if he had been in love before it must have led to much pain and tragedy. After all, this is a man whose own mother refused to even look at his face, a man who had no conception of what love was; what it was to receive, or to give.
The fact that his love bordered on the line of obsession further proves that he had never previously been in a romantic relationship. He knew no love therefore he didn't know how to show it. Erik had love confused with obsession. As intelligent as he was, he still remained a man and love baffles every human at some point and time. All the people he befriended, or people who befriended him, in Kay's novel were men: Nadir, Giovanni, Charles Garnier, Jules Bernard...He never dared to pursue anything with a woman although he had chances. There was the girl in Persia that the shah sent him as a token of appreciation. Erik could have had her but he didn't. Erik could have had the Khanum if he wanted to for God's sake but he didn't. And Luciana, need I even discuss her. ARGH! Anyways, there have been times when I thought maybe Erik went to a prostitute but then I read Kay's Phantom. Erik clearly stated in Kay's novel that he had done many things wrong in life but raping a woman was something he could not bring himself to do. He could have raped Christine that one night when she wore the wedding dress but he made her bolt her doors and he hid from her. Instead, he raped her with music.

Even in ALW's Phantom, I do not see any evidence that Erik has had previous relationships. Madame Giry has crossed my mind a few times but I think Erik and her relationship is more that of friends. She saved him when no one else cared; therefore, he will always be greatful for her kind act. In the broadway and 2004 movie, a Persian doesn't exist therefore we are lead to believe Giry is the only friend he has. I think that is strictly what she is.

On the subject of: How did he know what to do when he had Christine in his lair?

I have two theories:

One, he used his music to put Christine in a trance and in response, I believe he brought himself under the spell without meaning to. In the books, we are lead to believe he would never even touch a woman out of fear, so you would think he wouldn't touch Christine, right? Well, if he had entranced himself, then he would do things he wouldn't normally do just as his victims did when he hypnotized them; thus bringing him to touch and carress her.

Two, if he was aware that he was touching her that way, then I believe he was purely acting on instinct and hoping he got it right just like a normal person does when they try something like that for the first time. Plus, Erik was a very intelligent man who studied many things. It said he had many books, don't you think some of them may have been on.....ahem....certain subjects he had never experienced before, LOL.

I once again agree with Northangel27 on the Christine relationship. I don't believe it was a real relationship for the same reasons stated. I'll state what has been proclaimed many times: Poor Erik.....


I just wanna be alone now with the dark and the light. That's my favorite color blue there

As the sun sets in the sky, there's just something in the hue there in the corner of my eye
PhAnToMeSs07's Profile Send Private Message PhAnToMeSs07's Website Search Posts Reply With Quote

Name: | Gender: | Age: 28 | Posts: 5 | Roses: 10
Old 03-01-2007 at 03:44 AM
phantomoutcast
Wandering Child
Opera Performer



Roaming Dungeons
(Performer Is Offline)
 Post [14] »


I have never seen Erik in a previous relationship in any version. Although the 1980's movie did suggest that he used prostitutes, which isn't a completely out of the question. But then again, in that same movie, Carlotta was killed during the Masquerade. It really depends on the interpretation.

Do I think that he had previous relationships? A huge, flat out no. He is a genius in many ways, but he never really figured out how to have a loving, healthy relationship. Kay's book best describes why he turned out so unloved, we could blame the mother. She feared him and couldn't stand to be with him, it's not exactly the best mother-son bond.

I agree with the people who said that the relationship he had with Christine wasn't a real one, but to Erik, that's all he had ever known, so he didn't know that it was wrong until the final scene in the lair after the kiss. One kiss, and the spell was broken.


If you don\'t believe me, ask the man behind me with the flame-thrower. He only works for me part time, but he\'s a full time Phantom!



Proud poster of PG.net! Go there! Now! Do it!
phantomoutcast's Profile Send Private Message Search Posts Reply With Quote

Name: (Ch)Rissy/Riss | Gender: Goddess | Posts: 4,070 | Roses: 100
Old 03-15-2008 at 07:21 PM
masquerading rose
Wandering Child
House Patron
Crayon Queen



Roaming Dungeons
(Performer Is Offline)
 Post [15] »


In Kay, I believe Erik had prostitutes (correct me if I'm wrong) and he also had a little crush on Luciana until he blamed himself for her death and ranaway.

And anyways, I don't really call Erik/Christine a relationship. I call it a mistake, but that's just me...


If I can't hear the music, and the audience is gone,

I'll dance here on my own.


Banners by Rose, my sister, and me.
masquerading rose's Profile Send Private Message masquerading rose's Website Search Posts Reply With Quote

Name: Viktoria | Gender: A proper young lady | Age: 23 | Posts: 1,438 | Roses: 144
Old 03-15-2008 at 07:42 PM
The Countess
Wandering Child
I will not give up my own self...

The Countess's Avatar


Roaming Dungeons
(Performer Is Offline)
 Post [16] »


Quote:
Originally Posted by masquerading rose View Post
In Kay, I believe Erik had prostitutes (correct me if I'm wrong)
No, he said that he didn't bother with them because he couldn't bare to have his money turned away. Sad really.
The Countess's Profile Send Private Message The Countess's Website Search Posts Reply With Quote

Name: Linda | Gender: Female | Posts: 147 | Roses: 10
Old 10-05-2014 at 12:36 AM
Designated Driver
Wandering Child
Opera Performer



Roaming Dungeons
(Performer Is Offline)
 Post [17] »


Quote:
Originally Posted by MaskedRose View Post
Honestly, he wouldn't. I mean he travled with the gypsies a lot. He wouldn't have because no one would really want him and he didnt realize that until he found christine. Because no one ever wanted to really be with him. But even though Christine chose Raoul, he could still tell that she wanted to be with him, but she also knew that it would be a more akward relationship. Also knowing Erik, he wouldn't know what love is. The only love he had before Christine was probably his music and Sasha, his dog.
The issue I have found with Kay's writing is that she is in love with Erik. As a result, no woman will ever truly have him. Christine doesn't. He's dying when they finally get married and he only lasts a fortnight with her. Luciana dies. The harem girl gets put to death. Even Madeline doesn't truly get to love him as his mother.

But what about Leroux's version? Could Erik really be capable of loving Christine? If so, then there's no reason he couldn't love another before her. In fact, I believe it's very possible he did.

As for the movie, I have often thought that there might have been something between the Phantom and Carlotta. He hates Carlotta with a passion. That is an odd reaction for a tutor who simply believes Christine is a better singer. The film Phantom acts like a man who's been spurned by Carlotta. It makes me wonder if perhaps he tried or perhaps succeeded in tutoring her and when she refused his advances, he retaliated with hatred.
Designated Driver's Profile Send Private Message Search Posts Reply With Quote

Name: Chiara | Gender: a young lady | Age: 20 | Posts: 103 | Roses: 10
Old 10-05-2014 at 10:08 AM
Flattering Child
Wandering Child
no emperor received so fair a gift

Flattering Child's Avatar


Roaming Dungeons
(Performer Is Offline)
 Post [18] »


First thing to say here: Susan Kay' book is a phanphiction. I'm not saying it's bad. Phantphictions can be really good. But they are not canon, they are personal ideas, soem phans had. The difference is just that Kay's phanphiction got printed.

I don't think Erik ever had a real sexual or romantic relationship. Not before Christine. Not with Christine. I doubt Christine (unlike Raoul *cough*) ever THOUGHT of sex. And she didn't even have simply romantic feelings for Erik. I think she had mixed feelings of all kinds for him, including love (in the way a child loves a parent), fear and curiousity. And I think Erik simply loved her. Or wanted to love her. But they never had a real relationship, except for a very frail kind of a friendship.


Flattering Child's Profile Send Private Message Flattering Child's Website Search Posts Reply With Quote

Name: Linda | Gender: Female | Posts: 147 | Roses: 10
Old 10-05-2014 at 08:35 PM
Designated Driver
Wandering Child
Opera Performer



Roaming Dungeons
(Performer Is Offline)
 Post [19] »


Quote:
Originally Posted by Flattering Child View Post
First thing to say here: Susan Kay' book is a phanphiction. I'm not saying it's bad. Phantphictions can be really good. But they are not canon, they are personal ideas, soem phans had. The difference is just that Kay's phanphiction got printed.
Agree totally with this.

I think Leroux's version hints that Erik may have had at least one romantic relationship. There is a statement in Leroux where he speaks to the Persian of his past affairs. I haven't read of anything where this has been mistranslated.

I also believe the way Erik sets up house for Christine shows he has a knowledge of relationships as well. Being a person who hardly eats himself, he has different kinds of foods and wine on hand for her. Except for his room, the house is made up in a manner that's familiar to her, and he has enough knowledge of females to obtain the appropriate accessories so that she'll be comfortable during her stay with him.

I don't have this in my version but I understand there is a passage where Christine grabs a pair of scissors because she is frightened that Erik might sexually assault her. That to me is an interesting passage because there's nothing to me that indicates Erik had any intention of sexually harming her. What are your thoughts on that?
Designated Driver's Profile Send Private Message Search Posts Reply With Quote

Name: Chiara | Gender: a young lady | Age: 20 | Posts: 103 | Roses: 10
Old 10-06-2014 at 10:44 AM
Flattering Child
Wandering Child
no emperor received so fair a gift

Flattering Child's Avatar


Roaming Dungeons
(Performer Is Offline)
 Post [20] »


In my version, she uses the scissors, because she wants to kill herself. And she has never been frightened of Erik in a sexual way. The only sexual reference in my copy of the book is when Raoul asks Mama Valerius is Christine is still a virgin. That was the point when I gave up my mixed feelings for him and started to really dislike him. Such a disrespectful brat. I mean, how does a twenty year old snobbish and spoiled girl with a mustache behave like that toward an old lady? And how does he dare to hurt the honour fo his oh-so-great love and question her innocence? Okay, I'm going off topic...

I still doubt Erik had a previous relationship, but it's possible. What's impossible is rape. Definitely impossible. Erik was too much of a gentleman - or rather a gentle man. He would have never done something like that. Yes, I know, he was a murderer. But people who do bad things do not do all bad things, there are difference. Erik was not a rapist. He longed for true love, not for sex. Sex in addition, probably. But he loved Christine. Or wanted to love her. Or though he'd love her. He idn't "want" her. And he didn't "want" any other woman. It doesn't fit in.


And thanks, Designated Drive. I know many people love Kay's book and many even prefer it over the original. But entertaining as it is, it is nothing more than any other phanphiction you can find on sites like ff.net, etc. It's NOT a canon worl as Leroux' novel. It's even less canon than the musical. In fact, it is based on a mix of the book and the musical. Mainly the musical. Except that it uses the name "Erik" and it has the Persian. But apart from that, it's based on the musical. Everyone can enjoy it, but referring to when talking about things like this is totally wrong. We could then include books like "The Phantom of Manhatten". Or a random ff. (look, phantom-is-sooo-kewl!11! on readmahphanphics.phan has written this "eric and christin make love" - sooo this is canon now!) No! And I agree, The Phantom is a nice book (at least the parts in Italy and Persia) and we can speculate about it, but it's not a source for phacts about the Phantom. Rather, for theories.


Flattering Child's Profile Send Private Message Flattering Child's Website Search Posts Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:
 
Advanced Search
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Contact Us - Archive - Top