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Name: Chiara | Gender: a young lady | Age: 20 | Posts: 103 | Roses: 10
Old 10-09-2014 at 02:14 PM
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 Post [11] Ľ


Of course, he did. That's a huge part of it.


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Name: Linda | Gender: Female | Posts: 147 | Roses: 10
Old 10-09-2014 at 02:55 PM
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Fearing for her safety does not make him a stalker.
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Name: Chiara | Gender: a young lady | Age: 20 | Posts: 103 | Roses: 10
Old 10-09-2014 at 03:21 PM
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I did not talk about the reason for his stalking. I did not even call him a stalker. I said he stalked her. And he did. He followed her, secretly.

Of course, I exaggerated a little I just wanted to show, that Erik and Raoul mostly behave in the same way towards Christine. They both loved her, but they both also wanted her. And they both behaved wrongly.

And I think he did not only fear for her safety. I think even he was somehow obsessed with her. And I also think he feared for his own honour. And I think he underestimated her - a lot. Don't get me wrong - I'm sure he loved her. But his behaviour does not only come from his love for her.


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Name: Linda | Gender: Female | Posts: 147 | Roses: 10
Old 10-09-2014 at 04:55 PM
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They both stalked Christine

These are your words. Are you saying Raoul stalked Christine but was not a stalker? How so?
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Name: Chiara | Gender: a young lady | Age: 20 | Posts: 103 | Roses: 10
Old 10-09-2014 at 05:24 PM
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Not again. Yes, I think he was kind of a stalker. But there are different reasons for stalking. If someone stalks another person meaning good, it's still stalking. Stalking with a good intention. Raoul was a stalker. But "stalker" is a mean word. That's why I prefer saying "he stalked her" instead of "he was a stalker". Of course, it both means the same, but it appears slightly differently. :) I man, you said it yourself. "Fearing for her safety does not make him a stalker". But he still stalked her. Because secretly following somewhere to every place IS a kind of stalking. Even if that person wants to do something good. So, he's not a "stalker" in the evil way, but a stalker, because people who stalk people are stalkers.


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Name: Lynn Rossignol | Gender: Female | Age: 39 | Posts: 30 | Roses: 10
Old 10-09-2014 at 06:09 PM
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There is an interesting point to be observed within Raoul's behavior. Prior to there being a reason for 'fearing for her safety' he spied upon her through the dressing room door--this was after she dismissed him. He blatantly disrespected that request and continued to do so time and time again throughout... there is a pattern of Christine telling him to back away, ... we also see Raoul highly disrespectful a number of times when he thinks of how could Christine be acting as she is and not just flying into his arms. He 'returns' to her life and in his perspective she should just be thrilled to be in his arms. He clearly cannot fathom why-ever not! Raoul is rather arrogant in his assumptions if we stick to what little he DOES know at first--which is only that there appears to be someone else that has her attention. He has no real cause for 'concern for her safety' until right before Christine confesses to him on the rooftop. Sorry--but prior to that, from his perspective, it really wasn't his business and he kept doubting her when truthfully at that time there was no relationship.

Erik, well ... all one has to do is read Leroux's scene where Christine describes how he treated her down in his lair. Yes, admittedly he locked her in ... but aside from when she pulled his mask off and was entirely shocked to find the source of such beauty was ... well ... what appeared to be a living corpse ... Erik's mannerisms towards her are described as gentle, respectful, humble, he grovels before her ... he even lets her burn his mask. That to me takes extreme trust. Just isolating his perspective, yes that was love. He was doing what he felt he required was needed for her to take the chance to get to know him. We also learn from the Persian's narrative that she came and went various times apparently with body language that convinced him that she was doing so willingly. I'm not saying that what Erik did doesn't boarder on obsession and that their wasn't a component of greed... I do agree with an earlier remark in this thread--love does tend to have a greed component.

In the end I do believe that both Erik and Raoul loved Christine in their own way. I will always sway to Erik showing more respect overall as is evidenced in the scenes in the original work ... Erik doesn't act malevolently until he is pushed. Raoul on the other hand, demonstrates a repeated doubtful and insulting nature towards Christine rather early on and often with little cause.

Just my opinion.


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Name: Chiara | Gender: a young lady | Age: 20 | Posts: 103 | Roses: 10
Old 10-09-2014 at 06:30 PM
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Absolutely! I didn't even think of that... Yes, indeed! He even stalked her and disrespected her, before he had anything to worry about! Another reason why Raoul always makes me angry :/ I'm not a Raoul hater and he can be nice at some points but I hate the way he had NO respect at all for Christine. He was a stalker.

I agree about Erik. He treated her as well, as he could. I don't want to idealize him, because there was so much wrong with him. But he treated her well - at least for his standarts. He respected her. That is a lot. And he somehow was a gentleman. I think he wouldn't even have been ashamed to be called one - considering Victorian men didn't like the term "gentleman" (they took it as a kind of offence!). Anyways, that's an English and not a French thing... But... you know, what I mean...

They both loved her, but they both had some greed in their love. And they both loved her in their own way :/


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Name: Linda | Gender: Female | Posts: 147 | Roses: 10
Old 10-09-2014 at 07:21 PM
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 Post [18] Ľ


I feel both men were more greedy than genuine in their pursuit of Christine. I see Raoul as sometimes irrational in addition to falling victim to sometimes not thinking clearly. Almost being frozen to death at Perros, letting Christine talk him into the play engagement are two instances I can think of right off hand. How does this figure as being greedy? I think heís willing to do anything to get Christineís approval and that just doesnít seem all that genuine to me.

Raoul is a very brave man and that cuts both ways. I think his bravery is genuine, but it ends up overpowering his smarts. I admire his fortitude in going after Christine, but he ends up not rescuing her at all. Thereís the time he went into the sea to get her scarf. All fine and good but she was a child. Did the scarf really mean that much to her? He wasnít much older and risked drowning over apparel. So thereís also some immaturity there as well.

As for Erik, Iíll start with the Angel of Music. When men and women are courting I think itís natural to be on best behavior so politeness and gentleness are pretty much a given. But thatís not the real person. Itís a faÁade and I think a form of greed to impress the object of oneís intentions. The Angel of Music persona bothers me a lot. Erik knew the effect of his voice on people. Raoul himself started to fall victim. While he wanted to get to know Christine, using his voice to lure her smacks totally of greediness to me.

Then thereís the fact that he lures her down to his house so he has total control over her. Also a very greedy move. Heís kind and gentle but also very violent, not to mention having his own little torture chamber that heís not only willing, but very gladly shows her.

Just some starters on why I see these men as greedy rather than genuine.
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Name: Chiara | Gender: a young lady | Age: 20 | Posts: 103 | Roses: 10
Old 10-09-2014 at 08:11 PM
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 Post [19] Ľ


You have a good point here, Designated Drive. They are both greedy, of course. I still think they really loved her though. Both of them. I think their love for her was greedy AND genuine. :/


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Name: Linda | Gender: Female | Posts: 147 | Roses: 10
Old 10-09-2014 at 08:42 PM
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Thanks for the kind words, Flattering Child. I can see why you look at their actions the way you do.

I didnít want to leave Christine out of this mix because she is the cause for the way Raoul and Erik act. In short, I think she is greedier than the two men.

With them, itís obvious, they want her. But what exactly does she want? I donít think love is at the bottom of her actions. To me, she almost seems to be a person who wants it all. Donít get me wrong, I like her, and wanting it all isnít necessarily a bad thing. I mean, she doesnít murder anyone in her pursuit of it all. On the other hand, it often seems to me that she plays both men against each other, weighing them out.

Actually sheís not so very different from females in the animal kingdom, looking for the best male.
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