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Name: Linda | Gender: Female | Posts: 147 | Roses: 10
Old 12-23-2014 at 06:16 AM
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Thank you, Lotte. I don't have any of the translations, only the abridged version. I have, however, read other posters' thoughts on the various translations. I guess it comes down to whatever appeals to you. For me, because all of these translations have appeared fairly recently, I'm apt to be skeptical. I don't question the translator's experience or credentials. What I do consider is meaning. In my language alone, I can think of words and sentences that are of a completely different meaning than when they were said 100 years ago. I've read postings where people who are well versed in French are not sure what Leroux was trying to say. Since he isn't around to clarify, that's another issue. Despite all of that, I do find that none of the additional chapters or interpretations have changed the basic story.

But I am going wildly off topic here and that was not my intent. Christine is mentioned in the abridged version as a kind person. I don't not believe she is a 100% kind person though. She's often mean to Raoul and I sense a very apparent dislike of Carlotta.

She is a singer in the opera, understudy to Carlotta. She's not singing for charity. She sings to earn a living. All of the sudden she hears a beautiful voice and at Mama Valerius' suggestion, calls it the Angel of Music, even though the thought never occurred to Christine herself.

So the Angel of Music offers Christine lessons and she accepts. Why? She wasn't accepting to perform charity work. The only answer to this is that she wanted to be a better singer. Was her goal to replace Carlotta? She must have made that known somehow or Erik would not have picked up on it and poisoned Carlotta. I'm not saying that's a bad thing to want to be better and be the star. But it does take away from Christine this kind and wonderful girl who wants nothing more than to pity Erik. She wants more. Maybe she felt she's worked hard enough and deserves to move up. Either way, there's some greediness there. And look what happens to her after that. She resorts to lying, so there goes her integrity. We know she manipulates and that is not done out of kindness or compassion for another. Even her purity comes into question as she comes and goes from Erik's house without a chaperone.
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Old 12-23-2014 at 03:05 PM
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I think it's a pity. I would love to know exactly what Leroux wrote.

I can say this from a performer's point of view: Of course she wanted to become a better singer. Every performer's dream is to be lead, and if I'm understanding you right it doesn't make them greedy. I don't think Christine mentions Carlotta in the novel other than on the roof - I might be wrong on that, but anyway, she doesn't know how Carlotta got sick, how the croaking began, none of it. In the musical she defends herself from Carlotta, and that's all we see, with Christine being in the right. Anyway, Christine takes the job because they offer it.

I guess a lot of what I was trying to say is that you have to take her situation with Erik into account. she does what she has to for her and Raoul to survive. That she has every right to do, because she was being held captive, and comes to pity Erik, seeing the tragic situation she's in. She definitely has backbone, but you do see her cracking through with Raoul at Velarius's place. I'd say that she was allowed and right to defend herself considering her desire to comply with Erik's commands in order to keep herself and those she loves safe. That scene all comes down to Erik once again. We're also told she's kind up until the first performance, when she fears his leaving. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that the only times we see her as "unkind" are when Erik is involved in one way or another. Perros is, I think, just childish defense out of her belief of the Angel and a distressed affection for Raoul. She makes mistakes, yes. No one's perfect.

I think it's also important to take into account the situation she was in with the Angel. She thought of it then asked Mama Velarius, who she believed completely. The Angel was a friend to her, brough her out of a depression she'd been in since her father died. I think anyone would be afraid for a connection to a parent to leave. That's not to say she didn't want to become a good singer, but I don't think she meant Carlotta any harm. She does come out of it pure. She doesn't kiss him until she leaves, nor does she make much other contact with him. Mostly it's just being held hostage so that he won't kill her and won't kill anyone else. Do I think she ends the story as completely innocent? No. She couldn't have been because of all she had to do to survive. But I do think good intentions were at the heart of what she did rather than greed. And in the end, we see a very selfless act, a true echo of who she is.

Anyway, though, that's still just up to your interpretation.
Now I'm curious: what do you all think about Erik's situation at the end of the novel? Does his careless threat to Christine's life if she doesn't marry him suggest it? At the end I think it's love, but here I think it's greed.
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Name: Linda | Gender: Female | Posts: 147 | Roses: 10
Old 12-23-2014 at 04:24 PM
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I can say this from a performer's point of view: Of course she wanted to become a better singer. Every performer's dream is to be lead, and if I'm understanding you right it doesn't make them greedy.
Lotte, not every performer's dream is to be the lead any more than it is every artist's dream to be the next Leonardo da Vinci. There are people who are content with their lot in life and happy with the way they use their talents. There are also those who are ambitious. They want the star out of the way so they can step in and take over. In their hearts they believe they are a greater talent. Anything wrong with that? Not really. But let's say this person portrays herself as a na´ve and gullible young woman. Does that mesh? No. That's what I'm saying about Christine. What her desires are conflict with how she portrays herself.

I don't think she deserved what Erik did to her at all. However, he didn't just waltz right in and take her down to his house either. There was a period of time where Christine had complete control and could have walked away. She choose to continue singing lessons despite the fact she herself was suspicious.
I guess what it comes down to is this. Without Christine herself having flaws, there is no story. I think greed is one of her flaws and she tries to hide it with innocence and gullibility.

Quote:
Now I'm curious: what do you all think about Erik's situation at the end of the novel? Does his careless threat to Christine's life if she doesn't marry him suggest it? At the end I think it's love, but here I think it's greed.
Could you explain this a little more? What situation is it that you're referring to?
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Name: Anne | Gender: Female | Posts: 66 | Roses: 10
Old 12-23-2014 at 04:40 PM
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Lotte, not every performer's dream is to be the lead any more than it is every artist's dream to be the next Leonardo da Vinci. There are people who are content with their lot in life and happy with the way they use their talents. There are also those who are ambitious. They want the star out of the way so they can step in and take over. In their hearts they believe they are a greater talent. Anything wrong with that? Not really. But let's say this person portrays herself as a na´ve and gullible young woman. Does that mesh? No. That's what I'm saying about Christine. What her desires are conflict with how she portrays herself.

I don't think she deserved what Erik did to her at all. However, he didn't just waltz right in and take her down to his house either. There was a period of time where Christine had complete control and could have walked away. She choose to continue singing lessons despite the fact she herself was suspicious.
I guess what it comes down to is this. Without Christine herself having flaws, there is no story. I think greed is one of her flaws and she tries to hide it with innocence and gullibility.



Could you explain this a little more? What situation is it that you're referring to?

I think that came off wrong, sorry. My point was to say that who wouldn't take it if they have the chance? She was forced to keep her lessons a secret. If I'm remembering right, it was Erik who suggested it in the first place. I don't think she wanted Carlotta out of the way, exactly. That was never portrayed,
since the entire thing was Erik's doing and idea. Mama Velarius reassures her, but more so I am convinced that she was in full belief because she cries when she realizes that he isn't her Angel. Although I do sort of see your point.

Enough about that. I guess I didn't really explain myself, did i? I meant at the very end, when Erik threatens to blow everyone up. If he really loved her, he would have kept her alive. If he only wanted her for greedy reasons, then he would have no reason for her be alive. That sounds terrible, but that's Erik.
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Name: Linda | Gender: Female | Posts: 147 | Roses: 10
Old 12-23-2014 at 06:19 PM
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There's no need to apologize, Lotte. I understood what you were saying and you were right. There are people out there who want to be the best; that's their goal. They may want someone out of the way to take over immediately. They might just want to wait their turn. I don't look at them as greedy because I can't say for sure what the situation is for them. With Christine's situation, it seems different to me. I see greed there and hold her at least somewhat accountable for how things played out.

I think Erik also threatened Christine's life earlier if she lost his wedding ring. Death was an unhealthy part of his life. Maybe he looked at death as a part of love too and so it was okay to kill Christine if he had to. I myself always wondered if he would have killed her, had they married.
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Old 01-02-2015 at 04:35 PM
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There's no need to apologize, Lotte. I understood what you were saying and you were right. There are people out there who want to be the best; that's their goal. They may want someone out of the way to take over immediately. They might just want to wait their turn. I don't look at them as greedy because I can't say for sure what the situation is for them. With Christine's situation, it seems different to me. I see greed there and hold her at least somewhat accountable for how things played out.

I think Erik also threatened Christine's life earlier if she lost his wedding ring. Death was an unhealthy part of his life. Maybe he looked at death as a part of love too and so it was okay to kill Christine if he had to. I myself always wondered if he would have killed her, had they married.

I think he could have absolutely hurt her, had they married. Maybe he did look at deaths that way: but he shows that once he doesn't have Christine, he "does" of love. So I think once she was gone, he would be, too. I have no doubt that she would play victim in some way, whether it be emotionally or physically, and I don't think Christine would have lasted long...She is about the light, he the dark. Christine needs light and happiness, both things hat Erik couldn't give her, even if they lived above ground. That's why I think he really overcomes that greed in the end, because he realizes that she just won't be happy with him.

I also want to talk about Roaul again. You said a page or two ago that it seemed to you that he was willing to do anything to get his approval; yet he does so many things against her wishes. I read the engagement game chapter just recently and from the specific wording, Raoul went along with it because he would finally be getting to spend time with her. Christine, on the other hand, "reproaches herself bitterly" after she realizes what dangers the game was doing. After that they are very careful not to show too much love for fear of hurting one another (as per the book). We know that Christine was innocent in not dreaming it would hurt anyone. After, however, she still lets it go on, because Raoul wishes it to (and also I believe because Christine would be risking both their necks if Erik found out that she shut it off...He would surely realize the reason for it). So was the engagement game about Raoul? Yes. But there's no way to live our life without decision being about you in the first place. Also do not forget that Raoul offered the option of marriage, but she declines. Every happiness she declines him saves them both from Erik's wrath.
As for the rest of the time, Raoul doesn't respect her wishes. But every time for the exception of that first time outside her dressing room door, which is the only time wee see him a little bit cocky (I oersonally think he has a hard time handling not being loved back...when she protrays it that way). He blatantly oversteps his boundaries by accusing her and following her. But we find out that this is because he was concerned. Those thousands of times he accuses her of lying are because of heartbreak and what it looks like from his point of view, as Christine makes it look more like she is being noddy than anything - of course, we know that this isn't the case. Raoul also tells her in Apollo's Lyre that he is willing to take her away and then leave her, since she has sworn never to marry (thanks again, Erk...). That, to me, doesn't seme like greed. I'm not saying he's perfect: he can be a perfect jerk when Christine can't tell him that things aren't like they look, as well as a bit foolhardy, but he is also gentle and
brave.
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Name: Linda | Gender: Female | Posts: 147 | Roses: 10
Old 01-02-2015 at 09:58 PM
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I also want to talk about Roaul again. You said a page or two ago that it seemed to you that he was willing to do anything to get his approval; yet he does so many things against her wishes.
Like what?
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Name: Emily | Gender: Female | Posts: 5 | Roses: 10
Old 01-20-2015 at 09:26 PM
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I am going to start by saying I'm team Phantom!I do think that the Phantom really loved Christine. It is obvious in his music. I think Raoul's love was more an infatuation and a child hood romance that he got a second chance at. I think Christine loved them both, but in different ways. If Phantom hadn't murdered do many people, I think she could've loved him more. She had to choose Raoul because he could give her a life of safety and protection. If it was me, I'd still choose Phantom :-)


-~~~Musician of the Night ~~~-

Close your eyes and let the music set you free...

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Name: Linda | Gender: Female | Posts: 147 | Roses: 10
Old 01-23-2015 at 09:55 PM
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I am going to start by saying I'm team Phantom!I do think that the Phantom really loved Christine. It is obvious in his music. I think Raoul's love was more an infatuation and a child hood romance that he got a second chance at. I think Christine loved them both, but in different ways. If Phantom hadn't murdered do many people, I think she could've loved him more. She had to choose Raoul because he could give her a life of safety and protection. If it was me, I'd still choose Phantom :-)
A few things here. First of all, Erik tells us he was raised without the comfort of parents. Secondly, no woman could look upon his hideousness, even Christine. Third, he proves he has no love or compassion time and time again by the way he treats his fellow man. Fourth, he never approaches Christine as a potential suitor. Instead he deceives her. So how then could he really love her? He has no idea of what the word means.

I find it interesting that there are so many people who reduce Raoul to a being who's sole purpose is to provide a life of safety and protection to Christine. If that's how she views him, then she must be among the shallowest of women on earth. She, like Erik, would have no idea of what true love is.
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