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Name: Linda | Gender: Female | Posts: 147 | Roses: 10
Old 10-07-2014 at 06:11 AM
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The only sexual reference in my copy of the book is when Raoul asks Mama Valerius is Christine is still a virgin.That was the point when I gave up my mixed feelings for him and started to really dislike him. Such a disrespectful brat. I mean, how does a twenty year old snobbish and spoiled girl with a mustache behave like that toward an old lady? And how does he dare to hurt the honour fo his oh-so-great love and question her innocence? Okay, I'm going off topic...
This is an interesting point. Actually, there is quite a bit of logic to Raoul's question of whether Christine is a good girl or not. Valerius goes on about Christine being with her "good genius", the Angel of Music. When Raoul asks where the good genius lives, Valerius tells him in Heaven. She then proceeds to tell him that the Angel of Music gives Christine lessons in her dressing room. Raoul thinks about Christine's life with her father and Valerius and comes to the conclusion that Christine may not have a firm grip on reality. I think it's natural, given the circumstances, for him to question Valerius. He's thinking a fragile state of mind would allow Christine to be a victim. While she doesn't lose her virginity, her mind is another matter altogether. I think Raoul was correct in questioning Valerius.

But in point of fact, Erik himself also uses those very words, "good girl" to describe Christine after he kisses her. He says it once more, adding she's honest and she was the one who saved Daroga's life. I guess if Raoul is considered disrespectful in bringing up Christine's virginity to Valerius, Erik would have to be considered vulgar in bringing it up to Daroga.

Raoul needn't have worried though. Leroux's Christine is for the most part level-headed. I do not have the episode with the scissors in my version. From what I understand of it, Christine takes a bath, sees the scissors, and intends to commit suicide if Erik lays a hand on her. It sounds like Christine had some knowledge of rape and probably had knowledge of sex as well. She's prepared to defend herself in the event he tries anything.

But Erik takes a different tactic, and this makes me believe he is quite capable of raping Christine. I think her presence in his house was driving him toward that very thing and that's why he forced her into choosing him or death. Once she chose him, it'd be very easy for him to rape her. I could see him simply disguising it as "her choice". As his property, he could rape her any time he chose because the way he sees it, she is his "wife". He wouldn't have been any different from many men of that time period.

I like this sneaky side to him and I wish Susan Kay would have employed more of that in her version. After reading four go arounds about the tightly reined sexual beast who wants to rape but doesn't, it gets a little tedious.

I'm getting way off topic here as well. What I really wanted to say is that I don't think Erik would have been able to pull a lot of this off without a definite knowledge of women. The way he describes his 'affairs' to Daroga hints that there may have been other women before Christine came along.
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Old 10-07-2014 at 10:54 AM
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In my copy he didn't ask if she was a "good girl", but if she was still a virgin. I am not sure if he used the word "virgin" or "untouched" but he definitely didn't say "good girl".

Of course, Christine had knowledge about sex. She was an opera singer. Opera singers have always been considered something like prostitures - even virgins, like Christines. And many operas have sexual topics.

In my opinion, Erik never pladded to raper her. Rather making her love him, so she will want to sleep with him, as his dear wife.


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Name: Linda | Gender: Female | Posts: 147 | Roses: 10
Old 10-07-2014 at 03:15 PM
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In my copy he didn't ask if she was a "good girl", but if she was still a virgin. I am not sure if he used the word "virgin" or "untouched" but he definitely didn't say "good girl".
I have to say this is the first time I've ever read where the word, 'virgin', might have been used. In any version.

I'm curious to find out how Erik described Christine's condition when Daroga asks if she's still alive. Did he also use the word, virgin, or did he simply say she was untouched?

I guess in the end, it really doesn't make any difference. Both men discussed her virginity. I don't see Raoul's question as an attempt to hurt Christine's honor but logical after reading Leroux's explanation. Valerius says this genius lives in Heaven. He tutors Christine in her dressing room. Raoul is wondering just what the heck is going on. Rightly so I think.

When I was talking about Christine's knowledge of sex it was in response to the earlier statement that she didn't think about sex. As you pointed out, there was sex in operas. She thinks about protecting herself after bathing. If she has a knowledge of sex, I assume she thinks about it and wonders.

Erik used different tactics to force Christine right where he wanted her. He got what he wanted. She agreed to marry him to keep him from blowing up a good percentage of Paris. Despite the fact that she hadn't married him but only agreed to do so, he referred to her as his 'wife'. With that frame of mind, I could see him raping her. As her husband, he would have felt it was his right. Christine would have had no say so in the matter. She would have had to go along with it. She was his property.
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Old 10-07-2014 at 06:11 PM
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I've just checked it. In my copy, he asked if she was still "untouched". And I think it was mainly because he was afraid of being in love with a woman who is not only an opera singer, but also a "slut". I never though "good girl", when Erik told the Daroga about the kiss, was meant in a sexual way. I thought good menat just good. Perhaps one should interprete less and just take things the way they are said. And good - in some cases - really means good. In my opinion, he and Raoul both wanted to own Christine in a way. Both of them stalked her, both of them tried to possess her. Neither of them would rape her. But Erik - unlike Raoul - respected Christine. De was madly in love with her. Madly like crazily. He was obsessed with her. He wanted to be with her. Forever. But Erik was not the kind of man who thought "she's my wife. I can do everything to her now". That's more the kind of view a man like Raoul has. I'm not talking about Raoul in particular and I don't think he'd ever do something like that, but he still viewed Christine as a stupid pretty little thing he had to protect and to guide. Erik wanted to force Christien or rather to persuade her to various things, but he knew she would then think and decide on her own. Raoul though, was entirely sure, everything he did was good and right - even if he had decide instead of Christine. I always thought it was the point that Erik and Raoul behaved the same way in different "styles". None is better than the other. But Erik had more respect for Christine's own intellect, while Raoul had more respect for her body. But that is just logical, since Erik was an intellectual person, while Raoul was mainly physical.

People who know about sex don't necessarily think about having sex with someone. That's what I meant.


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Name: Linda | Gender: Female | Posts: 147 | Roses: 10
Old 10-07-2014 at 07:09 PM
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I've just checked it. In my copy, he asked if she was still "untouched". And I think it was mainly because he was afraid of being in love with a woman who is not only an opera singer, but also a "slut". I never though "good girl", when Erik told the Daroga about the kiss, was meant in a sexual way. I thought good menat just good. Perhaps one should interprete less and just take things the way they are said. And good - in some cases - really means good. In my opinion, he and Raoul both wanted to own Christine in a way. Both of them stalked her, both of them tried to possess her. Neither of them would rape her. But Erik - unlike Raoul - respected Christine. De was madly in love with her. Madly like crazily. He was obsessed with her. He wanted to be with her. Forever. But Erik was not the kind of man who thought "she's my wife. I can do everything to her now". That's more the kind of view a man like Raoul has. I'm not talking about Raoul in particular and I don't think he'd ever do something like that, but he still viewed Christine as a stupid pretty little thing he had to protect and to guide. Erik wanted to force Christien or rather to persuade her to various things, but he knew she would then think and decide on her own. Raoul though, was entirely sure, everything he did was good and right - even if he had decide instead of Christine. I always thought it was the point that Erik and Raoul behaved the same way in different "styles". None is better than the other. But Erik had more respect for Christine's own intellect, while Raoul had more respect for her body. But that is just logical, since Erik was an intellectual person, while Raoul was mainly physical.

People who know about sex don't necessarily think about having sex with someone. That's what I meant.
The only time the phrase, "good girl" is used in my version is when Raoul asks Valerius if Christine is still a "good girl" and when Erik tells Daroga that Christine is a "good girl". It doesn't make sense to me that Raoul would use these two words to describe Christine's virginity but yet when Erik uses them, there's a completely different meaning. So to me, both men are talking about Christine's virginity. Since no explanation is provided as to why Erik even brings it up in the first place, to me, he is the more vulgar. Daroga didn't ask about it. The subject should have never been brought up. In the respect department, that, along with the other things Erik did to control Christine, tells me Erik has much less respect for her than Raoul.
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Old 10-07-2014 at 08:22 PM
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But we both only own a translation. Or are you talking about the original French version? That's a different thing then! Because they don't necessarily both say "good girl". But couldn't see Erik's point. I mean, since it's like "She kissed me and din't die! She didn't push me away! She's such a good girl!" Seriously you can't replace good girl with virgin here. But while good girl in this case is identical to my (German) copy, I assume it's the same in all copies. As for the virginity Raoul asks about, it's different in at least two and I assume way more copies. It may be only your copy which says "good girl". But since I don't know the original novel, I can't say that. I think Erik just said that Christine is a good girl. He praised her. That is all.


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Name: Linda | Gender: Female | Posts: 147 | Roses: 10
Old 10-07-2014 at 08:43 PM
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But we both only own a translation. Or are you talking about the original French version? That's a different thing then! Because they don't necessarily both say "good girl". But couldn't see Erik's point. I mean, since it's like "She kissed me and din't die! She didn't push me away! She's such a good girl!" Seriously you can't replace good girl with virgin here. But while good girl in this case is identical to my (German) copy, I assume it's the same in all copies. As for the virginity Raoul asks about, it's different in at least two and I assume way more copies. It may be only your copy which says "good girl". But since I don't know the original novel, I can't say that. I think Erik just said that Christine is a good girl. He praised her. That is all.
I don't have the original French version. The one I have is the one that's the most popular. It's missing an entire chapter I believe.

Daroga asks Erik if Christine is dead and Erik replies she's not dead. He goes on to say she's a good girl. I'm sorry, but it doesn't make a lot of sense for Erik to reiterate that point to Daroga if all he's doing is praising Christine for not being bad. Especially when Raoul uses the very same phrase. Why would Daroga care if Erik praises Christine for being good? In short, he wouldn't. All he cares about is if Christine is alive or dead.

If this phrase were used throughout the book, I would agree with you. But it's not. It's used once by Raoul and once by Erik. They're both talking about Christine's virtue.
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Old 10-08-2014 at 11:55 AM
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It's only used once by Raoul and by Erik in YOUR copy which is also missing a full chapter.

This is a rough English translation of my German copy, when Erik meets the Daroga:

"And is she dead now?"
"I've told you I have kissed her... alive... on her forehead... and she didn't deny her head for my mouth... Oh, she is such a good girl!... I don't think she is dead... though that's none of my buisiness for now... No, no, she isn't dead!... And woe when I hear... someone did harm to her!... She is a good, a decent girl... also, she saved your life... when nobody would have given a penny for your skin!..."

And this is Raoul's part:

"Christine is surely still untouched?" it slipped out of his mouth unexpectedly.
"I swear by the salvation of my soul!" the old lady cried outraged. "If you doubt that, Monsieur, then I don't know why you should stay here!"


I think that's very different. And only because your copy is the most popular, it doesn't mean it's the most accurate, considering it has a whole chapter missing. Which chapter is missing, by the way? I assume your book is censored. Is it an American version? That might be the reason why your translator didn't use words like "virgin" or "untouched", to make it less sexual. Thus he used "good girl". Or she. Whoever translated it.


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Name: Linda | Gender: Female | Posts: 147 | Roses: 10
Old 10-08-2014 at 02:15 PM
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It's only used once by Raoul and by Erik in YOUR copy which is also missing a full chapter.

This is a rough English translation of my German copy, when Erik meets the Daroga:

"And is she dead now?"
"I've told you I have kissed her... alive... on her forehead... and she didn't deny her head for my mouth... Oh, she is such a good girl!... I don't think she is dead... though that's none of my buisiness for now... No, no, she isn't dead!... And woe when I hear... someone did harm to her!... She is a good, a decent girl... also, she saved your life... when nobody would have given a penny for your skin!..."

And this is Raoul's part:

"Christine is surely still untouched?" it slipped out of his mouth unexpectedly.
"I swear by the salvation of my soul!" the old lady cried outraged. "If you doubt that, Monsieur, then I don't know why you should stay here!"

I think that's very different. And only because your copy is the most popular, it doesn't mean it's the most accurate, considering it has a whole chapter missing. Which chapter is missing, by the way? I assume your book is censored. Is it an American version? That might be the reason why your translator didn't use words like "virgin" or "untouched", to make it less sexual. Thus he used "good girl". Or she. Whoever translated it.
My copy is the de Mattos translation, which I understand is abridged. The chapter that is missing is that of the magic envelope. I'm not sure which copy you have, you didn't provide me with the name. But that aside, I've spoken with people who have the better translations and asked the basic question....does the de Mattos version impact the story? In all cases, I have been told "no". It does not. The story is still the same. What the characters say is still basically the same thing.

I understand your argument. You want me to believe he is a gentleman and would never violate Christine. Well, kissing her and referring to her as his wife gives the impression he violated her, since he considers her his wife. He's basically telling Daroga he did not touch her. She remains a good girl, in the same wording as when Raoul asked Valerius if Christine was a good girl. I admit, in both cases it's odd. But the fact remains.....BOTH men talk about her virtue.

What you've quoted to me does not show proof positive that Erik was simply praising Christine for 'not being bad'. That does not make sense, especially in view of the fact that Erik talks about kissing her, not to mention referring to her previously as his 'wife'. Anyone he tells that to would naturally believe he slept with Christine. He's telling Daroga he did not.

I have a question that I wanted to add because I am curious. You are translating Erik's statement as one of praise. In short, he's saying Christine is not a bad girl. What in your translation leads you to believe that Erik thought she was a bad girl up until that point?
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Old 10-08-2014 at 07:21 PM
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I don't want you to believe anything. I just tell what I believe.

They use the same phrase in YOUR book. Of course, one can interprete that they mean the same thing, but that doesn't make it a FACT.

The answer is nothing: Nothing makes me think he ever thought she was bad. And I have NEVER heard that when someone calls something "good" he'd mean he didn't think that person was good until then. He was sad, he was lucky, he was full of emotion in that situation and simply called the person he loved "good". There is NOTHING wrong about that. Nothing! And the fact that Raoul used the word "good" in YOUR copy when talking about her virginity, doesn't mean Erik talked about her virginity. It just doesn't make any sense.


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