The Phantom's Opera

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Phantomangel 07-17-2010 02:46 PM

Genuine Love or Genuine Greed?
I was listening to the soundtrack of the movie as I was working today and with listening to the production a contemplative topic came to mind. I have always like the Phantom much better than Raoul personally. My thoughts are that Raoul is just being a jealous and greedy lover. He could of had any rich, famous beautiful girl that he wanted. But the Phantom could not. Love is more about just wanting to live with someone for the rest of your life. It's a choice to be able to even live with the idea that the person in which the love is focused on may not reciprocate. I think the Phantom had genuine love, he loved one girl for the entire existance since the first time they had "met", and loved her enough to give her up. Raoul I don't believe did. He was not willing to give Christine to the Phantom. They were child hood sweethearts but he left- for whatever reasons. She moved on and then he comes back expecting to pick up where they left off. He didn't listen to her when she explained what was going on with the Angel of Music, instead caused more trouble and heartache. He was not willing to love her with her decision. Love or Greed? Don't most decisions in life come down to that question?

Erik 07-17-2010 03:40 PM

With all do respect, in that time and coming from young Christine, the Angel of Music story would not have made a whole lot of sense, haha. But you also have to consider the different versions of the story in which he was more compassionate. I think that Raoul loved Christine... I think it pained him to have her taken from him by The Phantom for however long, and that she was taken at all likely offered him many emotions. One which was likely greed.

The same with the Phantom. He loved her with everything he had. His love for her took a maniacal turn because he had nothing but her, and music. His love for her turned greedy too, especially with the jealousies he had over Raoul, who exemplified the average man that should be courting Christine, as opposed to him, who would be left to the mercy of man's cruelty if he was ever even looked at without his mask.

And on a general note, I don't think there is a such thing as love without greed. It is just a part of love. Greed that lies in jealousy. Greed in wanting to spend more time with the other. Greed every time you're with them, because you ideally can't get enough of them? I don't know. That's just what I think. :)

KChan88 07-17-2010 09:54 PM

Interesting topic. I personally don't think Raoul was greedy. Just because he could have had any other girl, it didn't change the fact that he truly loved Christine. On that note, I think people often tend to leave Christine out of the love triangle equation, and treat her like she was an object to just give away. All evidence points toward Christine truly loving Raoul. Yes, she did care for the Phantom, she certainly had a kind of love for him, but she was in love with Raoul. Even if Raoul hadn't been in the story, I don't think Christine would have stayed with the Phantom. Yes she certainly had a connection with him, but she was also terrified of him at many points.

And if anyone was greedy, sad as his story is, I'd have to say that it was Erik. He was the one comitting murders, making demands, and kidnapping Christine, forcing her down to his lair against her will. He presented her with a choice no one should have to make; either stay there against her will, or watch her fiance and childhood sweetheart die in front of her. I'd say that's pretty greedy on Erik's part. That's why the end of the story is so beautiful: Erik is willing to give Christine up to the man she truly loves, and lets go of his own feelings. And that's hard.

As far as Raoul leaving when they were younger, well, Christine's father had died, and she went to live at the opera, and Raoul probably got sent off to school or something along those lines. I don't think he chose to be apart from her. During the whole movie/play, Raoul is constantly thinking of Christine, and does everything yes, because he loves her and hopes to marry her, but also to secure her safety and her freedom. He loves her romantically, but I think she's also his best friend. Even if she hadn't reciprocated his romantic feelings, I'm quite sure he still would have tried to rescue her. I don't think he's greedy at all.

Everyone has the right to their opinion of course, this is just mine. :wiggle:

Phantomangel 07-18-2010 04:06 AM

I am greatly liking all the feedback...Please continue everyone!

Opera Tart 10-03-2010 08:35 PM

I totally agree with what has been said. Both Erik and Raoul had a bit of greed, because is jealousy not greed in a different form?
Yes They both loved her with every ounce of breath in their bodies but non of them really wanted to let her go. Erik let her go in order to save his life and hers, I can almost bet my life that if Raoul was in that situation where he had people coming to kill him he would have told her to leave as well. So she would not have to witness what would have happened.

WanderingChild96 07-07-2011 09:47 PM

I disagree...
Let me start by saying that I adore Raoul, and ship RC. Although I don't dislike EC, I don't think it's possible. Here's why: first of all, Erik was a good thirty years or more older than Christine. Two, he lied to her. If anything, his love was an obsession. I'm not denying that he loved her, because I think he did; but, I think he was in love with the idea of loving her. From the moment he thought there was a chance of that love being reciprocated, his love became greed. She obviously wasn't happy with him, but he tried to make her love him; and threatened Raoul, who she did love and who loved her too.

Yes, they were childhood sweethearts, but Raoul didn't leave her. They met at the seaside. Raoul was at his family's summer home, and Christine was on vacation. It was a short-lived romance that couldn't have possibly worked at the time. Raoul came from a rich family. He could have had anyone he wanted, but he wanted Christine. Why go to all the trouble to marry Christine if he didn't genuinely love her?

Though, Erik and Raoul both had their faults when it came to Christine. Erik lies to her, tells her he's an Angel, kidnaps her, threatens her fiance, and makes her choose between marriage and death? (Note that my thoughts are Leroux based, as I'm a Leroux purist). Did he really think that was going to win her over? He would have her physically, but never emotionally.

And then Raoul: he eavesdrops on her, hides in her dressing room, and basically stalks her. Between he and Erik, Raoul is definitely the better choice, but they both seem to go out of their way to "win" Christine. My verdict is this: BOTH Erik and Raoul love Christine, but BOTH are greedy in their love. But for Christine, who is a naive girl, Raoul was the better choice. He was able to make her happy, and in the end, isn't that what love is about?

BlackRibbonRose 12-12-2012 08:28 AM

Love is Complex
I agree with all that is being said here, however, I think we seem to forget that love takes on many forms. Obviously Erik's love would be greedy because of the great extent of his love for Christine. His obsessive love. Raoul's love wasn't greedy per say, but his affections and his connection with her was so strong, he couldn't let her wonder into danger. Lets face it, Raoul doesn't know Erik as well as us, the audience, knows him. We see Erik's pain, his suffering and his his love, but to Raoul, Erik is just a mad man kidnapping his fiancÚ and killing the stagehands. Raoul loves Christine in the form of a protecter or a hero. Erik loves Christine in the form of obsession, addiction and possessiveness. All are love, just some can only handle certain love. I believe that Christine loves Erik and Raoul equally, only that she chose Raoul because it was his love that she could handle at the time. Love Never Dies is another discussion haha.

Designated Driver 09-20-2014 07:13 PM


Originally Posted by Phantomangel (Post 127830)
My thoughts are that Raoul is just being a jealous and greedy lover. He could of had any rich, famous beautiful girl that he wanted. But the Phantom could not.

I'd be interested in knowing why you think the Phantom couldn't have courted any other girls.

Flattering Child 10-09-2014 11:52 AM

In my opinion, Raoul and Erik behaved in the same way in different styles. I always thought it was kind of Leroux "plan".

They both stalked Christine.
They both didn't really trust her.
They both forced her to do things she didn't want.
They both wanted to "own" her.
They both made decisions for her, without wondering if she might agree.
They both didn't really respect her.
Also, they both were okay with the idea of killing someone.

BUT - in different styles.
While they didn exactly the same things, Raoul appeared like a perfect gentleman (probably because the book is from his POV. Or because he was pretty. Or whatever.) while Erik appeared to be a monster.

They both loved her, but in both cases it wasn't an innocent, pure kind of love.

I think it's a kind of meaning. That lovely girl has admirers - one of them deformed and ugly, and intellectual but mad. The other one beautiful, young and pretty, kind of heroic, but not particularly bright. And both of them did exactly the same things because they both loved that woman, but also because they both wanted that woman.

The deformed one wanted her, because he was so madly in love with her. Madly as in madly. He was not used to being love, but he wanted to be love. He didn't really trust her, because he wasn't sure she'd be in love with him - how could she? He thought, giving her some time -and keeping her with him - would work. He stalked her to make sure she wouldn't leave him. He made decisions instead of her, because he wanted her - but he also knew she was able to decide. He was an intellectual, intelligent man and he did not underestimate her. He knew she was an intelligent lady. He didn't respect what she wanted, but he respected the fact that she was able to think on her own. She was even kind of a trophy for him - the one person to love him. That man, having been hated by nearly everyone, turned out to be a murderer. Yes, he killed. That is horrible tragedy. But these people - they're not of his kind, aren't they? WHo cared for society, when he wasn't even a part of it?

The other one, the beautiful one, knew her for a long time. They knew each other as children. And they met again. He might have thought he had an elder right to own her. He wanted to be her heroic prince - and later, her wonderful, kind owner. He, too, also stalked her. And he didn't really trust her. He was envious of the "angel" she talked about. And why should some madman own her? She was to be owned by him! He forced her and made decisions for her, because he was sure, he would not be able to decide on her own - a stupid woman was she. At least in his eyes. A beautiful little child, free of mind. Her dreams and ideas might have been cute - but not at all respectable. He was afraid of having her body hurt but he didn't respect her intellect. She was a trophy - a pretty little wife. Not quite his social rank - but people like having a scandal once in a time these days. So, who cares? At least he made sure she was a virgin. It is unknown, if he ever killed. But considering he was a soldier, he most likely did. We don't know if he had to or wanted though. But he wanted to kill the other man the deformed one. And if a noble man killed a man who was - in his opinion - less noble, it was surely a noble act, wasn't it?

And the winner is - the pretty boy! Because the loser is not only a mad, stalking, disrespectful murderer. NO! It's way WORSE! He's UGLY!

Don't get me wrong. I don't want to make botha ppear bad. But that is my theory. I might be totally wrong. And I like both, somehow. Though I prefer Erik.

Designated Driver 10-09-2014 01:16 PM

I believe Raoul feared for her safety and that's why he took such an interest in her life.

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